Question: How long have you been involved in the
bodybuilding, health, and fitness industry? How
did you start in the industry and get so well known?
Will Brink: I have been involved in the “biz”
for almost 20 years at this point. Back in the day,
when I had a private training business, people kept
telling me I should write articles for the magazines.
I had a good reputation in the local area for getting
bodybuilders into shape, pre-contest. At the time,
I was also doing some local seminars and people
kept telling me I should send in some articles to
the bodybuilding magazines. That’s more or
less where it started for me.
Question: So what was the first magazine you published
an article in?
Will Brink: I had published articles in a bunch
of local and regional publications before that,
but the first large, well known bodybuilding magazine
I published in was MuscleMag International. How
it happened is sort of a funny story, actually.
I sent the article in and heard nothing back from
them. Months went by and nothing—no rejection
or acceptance letters, just nada. I figured they
weren't’t interested and writing articles
for the ‘big time’ magazines was not
in my future.
One day I was in the book store with my girlfriend
at the time, and we were looking through the various
magazines. I recall the day vividly, in fact. I
was looking at a Flex Magazine and she was looking
through a copy of MuscleMag. She asked me, “Didn’t
you submit an article to this magazine?” I
said, “Yes, but they never responded, so I
guess they weren’t interested in what I had
to say.” She spun the magazine around and
there was a big, two page spread with an article
called “How to Make Constant Gains and Avoid
Burnout by Will Brink.”
I have to say, my brain was still not really processing
what I was seeing. I think it took a full minute
or so for the info to actually hit the part of my
brain that fully appreciated that I did, in fact,
have my first article published in a magazine read
all over the world.
I yelled, “Hey, that’s my article!”
Everyone in the quiet book store looked over at
us. I said, “Hey, this is my article in this
magazine!” to the staring people. They looked
back at me with a “Great, so shut up already,”
look. I grabbed all the MuscleMags they had, about
ten or twelve I recall, and purchased them. Still
have them in a box in the basement! I contacted
MuscleMag and they had lost my contact info and
figured I would pop up after seeing the article
in print…what if I had never seen it?!
Question: So who else did you write for after that?
Will Brink: Oh geez, a bunch of publications, not
all just bodybuilding-oriented. Back in the day,
the magazine you had to be in was Muscle Media 2000,
which was owned by Bill Phillips. So, I made a point
to be in that magazine on a regular basis. Beyond
that, I continued to write quite a bit for MuscleMag
International, and had a monthly column with them
for over 10 years. Others off the top of my head
were Let’s Live, Muscle & Fitness, Life
Extension magazine, Muscular Development, Townsend
Letter for Doctors, IronMan, Inside Karate, Exercise
for Men Only, Physical, Power, Body International,
Oxygen, Penthouse, Fitness RX, Big, as well as others
over the years that I can’t remember right
now.
Question: That’s quite a list Will! You may
be the most published bodybuilding and fitness writer
out there. Errr, Penthouse? Writing dirty stories
too?
(Laughing). No porn! At the time, Penthouse had
a men’s health section. I don’t know
if they still do or not, but the editor at the time
contacted me about writing some short pieces on
nutrition and such for that section, so no, I was
not submitting dirty stories to Penthouse! I did
attend one of their Christmas parties in NY, however,
and that was… interesting to say the least!
But that’s all I’m willing to say on
the matter.
Question: I know you have also written chapters
in various books and or written entire books, including
e-books. Can you tell us about some of that?
Will Brink: How much time and space do we have
here? (laughing). My first actual print book was
called “Priming the Anabolic Environment”
which was geared, as the name implies, toward bodybuilders.
It covered all the essential basics of gaining muscle
mass. It can still be found on the shelves in some
book stores as well as from Amazon and other online
retailers.
I’ve written chapters here and there for
various sports nutrition text books, as well as
some peer-reviewed research found in the science
and medical journals—although I am not a ‘scientist’
in the classic sense as I don’t work at a
lab or university. Most people have probably heard
of “Body for Life” by Bill Phillips,
which was a national best seller. Before that book,
he had a book called The Sports Supplement Review.
I wrote chapter eleven of that book, for example.
Question: What got you into the fitness and bodybuilding
industry? What was your background for all the writing
and consulting work?
Will Brink: My grandmother bought me a gym membership
for my fourteenth birthday. As a kid growing up
in Brooklyn NY, trouble had a habit of finding me.
She thought a membership to a gym might be a good
place for me to stay out of trouble, and she was
right. That’s what got me into bodybuilding
and fitness on a personal level.
What actually got me started in the biz is a topic
I’ve never discussed in public before. When
I was a college student, I worked out, read the
muscle magazines, and was more or less your average
guy in the gym who ate pretty well and took a multivitamin.
I was majoring in Psychology and journalism at the
time and ever thought anything about the health
and fitness industry. At 20 years old, however,
I experienced a life-threatening illness that changed
the entire direction of my life. What I learned
was that working out, a “healthy” diet,
and a multivitamin was clearly not enough to prevent
disease, and more research was needed on my part.
Question: What illness did you have if I may ask?
Will Brink: I was diagnosed with Hodgkin’s
Lymphoma, which is a form of cancer of the lymph
nodes. I was treated for that, and have been disease-free
ever since, although I have suffered some side effects
from the treatments over the years. That experience
totally changed my view of the world, and sent me
in a direction I had never anticipated, which was
many years of research in nutrition and the medical
sciences in general.
I became something of a perpetual student, took
courses in so many topics I can’t even tell
you. Nutrition, chemistry, physiology, psychology,
all manner of writing courses, as well as other
topics both science and non-science related. From
1983 to around 1997, I took courses at 5 different
colleges I recall. I probably have enough credits
for several masters’ degrees at this point!
Finally I realized I had better get some sort of
actual degree. I graduated from Harvard University
with a concentration in the Natural Sciences. It
was mostly a pre-med course load I took, with some
sidetracks into areas I was interested in.
So, my lifelong research into health, fitness,
nutrition, bodybuilding, anti-aging, disease prevention,
weight loss, and other topics began with an illness
that totally threw a monkey wrench into my life.
It all started there really, though I didn’t
know that at the time…
Question: Long term side effects from the treatments?
I met you at the Arnold Classic and you look like
a very healthy man!
Will Brink: The treatments are known to cause damage
to the thyroid and the heart in particular. I have
had some issues with both, but yes, in fact I am
quite healthy compared to most people. I do have
to take thyroid medication, and get regular check
ups for the heart, but cardiovascular tests always
show me to be above average in cardio function.
All things considered, I am in good health, although
I remain at greater risk for cardiovascular issues
such as scar tissue, and other problems.
Question: With those roadblocks thrown in your
way at such an early age, you seemed to have accomplished
quite a bit.
Will Brink: I have never let any of it stop me
from achieving what I needed to achieve. Slow me
down, yes. Force me to work around it, yes. Force
me to alter my path in life, yes. Stop me, no!
Question: What have you learned from the experience
that you can share with others?
Will Brink: Mostly that people are far tougher
than they think, that life will always find a way
to let you know you are not the boss, and you better
appreciate what you have. It’s allowed me
to have empathy with people from all walks of life
I think. At the same time, I don’t have much
sympathy for those who are not willing to take account
of themselves and their behavior, and take responsibility
for where ever it is they find themselves in this
life.
Question: You mentioned psychology. For some reason,
I don’t see you as a psychology buff. You
always strike me as one focused on the “hard”
sciences like chemistry or biology.
Will Brink: Yes, well, people know me as a “hard”
science type as you said, but I have always been
fascinated by the inner workings of the human psyche.
I was a psych major before my big change in direction,
and through the years have done course work in general
psychology, child psychology, abnormal psychology,
developmental psychology, and personality psychology.
I still read about the topic to this day and believe
the human mind plays a far greater role in our physical
health than most appreciate, or science and modern
medicine is willing to admit.
Question: Interesting. Do you think you would have
gone on to get a Ph.D. in that area if you had not
changed directions as you said?
Will Brink: Very possibly yes, but I probably would
have gone into research vs. being a therapist. Having
been through plenty of hard times myself and knowing
people who have been through some very tough experiences,
I have a very limited capacity to listen to people
complain about mundane things.
Question: Understandable, I suppose. Getting back
to the fitness and bodybuilding industry, you are
also known as the “insider’s insider”
when it comes to the supplement industry, and the
questionable practices some companies rely on to
sell products. I bet you could tell us some amazing
stories there. How bad is it out there? Can you
share one that won’t get you sued or in too
much trouble?
Will Brink: Sure I can, without naming names…
After all the writing I was doing, I started to
get requests for doing consulting work for all manner
of supplement companies. I have consulted on different
levels for a wide variety of companies, on R&D,
marketing, helping with research, and other stuff.
So how bad is it out there, you ask? In the late
90s, I had a monthly retainer contract consulting
for one of the most successful supplement companies
on the planet. At the time, it made close to 100
million dollars per year, and was very well known.
I was doing my usual work for these guys, some R&D
for formulas, and so on.
I get called into a meeting with the owner of the
company and he shows me what they are working on.
He asks what I think about it, so I tell him the
truth, which is, the research does not support the
claims they plan on making about this product and
it’s generally worthless. The owner gets a
“gee, this guy is really naive” look
on his face and says to me:
“Will, what we do is throw sh&% against
the wall and see what sticks. We can worry about
the rest later.”
That is an absolutely true story and one of many
experiences I have had in the industry. What the
owner of this company was letting me know, in no
uncertain terms, was he didn’t care there
was no research to support what he planned on selling,
nor did he care if the product actually worked.
He knew the power of marketing would make it sell,
and as long as it sold, he didn’t give a rat’s
behind about the science.
I let him know that I don’t get involved
in projects where the company had no interest in
supporting their claims with real science, and we
parted ways. That conversation cost me about 75k
right there, and that sucked! However, I have this
conscience about such things that just won’t
quit, so that was that. As I have said many times
in many places, if you can drop your conscience,
you can make a lot of money in the supplement industry,
be it bodybuilding or weight loss.
Question: So you told the owner of this mega-popular
supplement company that the product had no real
science to support it, and that’s what he
said?
Will Brink: Yup! Me and my big mouth; telling the
truth! As a consultant, and an independent one at
that, it’s always been my policy to tell them
the truth. Owners of such companies are usually
surrounded by your classic “yes men”
types who tell the owner what he or she wants to
hear. As far as I am concerned, I’m not paid
to tell them what they want to hear, I’m paid
to tell them what they need to hear. To be perfectly
honest with you, most of them really don’t
want to hear the truth, and prefer the yes men.
These days I limit my consulting work to those
companies that have some integrity and an interest
in good science; research to support their claims;
and hopefully, an owner who does not prefer “yes
men.” Will Brink is no yes man…
If there is one thing I am well known for, both
publicly via the mags and the ‘net, as well
as privately, it’s that I tell the facts and
the truth when it comes to matters of supplements,
or weight loss, or gaining muscle, etc. Some people
really appreciate that, and some don’t. I
have made my fair share of enemies by taking the
honest approach.
Question: Enemies really? Do I sense another good
story?
Will Brink: Sure, telling the truth often costs
other people money. After I wrote an article that
exposed the fact that not all creatines were created
equal, and that some creatines on the market contained
unacceptably high levels of contaminants, I had
the owner of one company almost take a swing at
me at a conference. I cost him a fortune as he was
making most of his money selling crappy creatine
to people at outrageous profits. He went out of
business shortly after that. No loss to the world
as far as I was concerned, the guy was a real jerk
to boot…I wrote about that experience in the
follow up article on the impurities found in some
creatines, which single-handedly altered the entire
creatine market at the time.
Question: I get the impression that you are saying
that most supplement companies and diet companies
and such don’t employ scientists or others
who may actually know—or care—if their
products actually work. Is that right?
Will Brink: Essentially correct, yes. The ads give
people the impression there are scientists in white
lab coats at these companies designing supplements
or diets based on real science. In a few companies
that’s true, but in the vast majority of companies,
it’s just a couple of out-of-shape marketing
guys, or guru wannabe types, throwing you-know-what
against the wall to ‘see what sticks.’
For example, the owner of the aforementioned company
who made that statement was a short fat guy who
previously had two heart attacks! His company employed
essentially no one with any science background,
but they had one hell of a marketing budget and
sales force!
Question: This is some real eye-opening information
you are giving us today. Black helicopters going
to show up at your house?!
Will Brink: I hope not!
Question: But seriously, from what you are saying,
it sounds like all the weight loss or bodybuilding
supplements and products are a total scam. Is that
right?
Will Brink: Not at all. If I felt that way, I would
not use so many supplements myself! However, it
is the industry that is the poster child for the
term “buyer beware.” People need to
be educated consumers, whether they’re looking
to lose weight or gain muscle, as there are countless
scam diets and worthless supplements out there.
If you are not willing to do some research on your
own or pay someone else who has, then you will be
throwing hundreds, perhaps thousands, of dollars
down the toilet.
It's about making smart choices as an educated
consumer, not jumping on the bandwagon for every
new supplement or miracle diet plan you believe
will change your life overnight by helping you “lose
30 lbs in ten days” or “gain muscle
like you were on megadoses of steroids.”
Question: I notice you don't put your name to any
supplement brand as such, or have your own brand.
There's big money in that, no?
Will Brink: There can be, yes. Over the years,
I’ve played with the idea of starting my own
brand or teaming up with some existing company,
but so far, it hasn’t happened, at least not
on an official level. I prefer to sell information
people can use to gain muscle, or lose fat, improve
their health, or what ever effect they want vs.
selling supplements. I prefer to be behind the scenes
for the most part, helping companies improve a product
or design a new one. I’m not really comfortable
with the idea of putting my name on a label or being
directly associated with a product. It presents
something of a conflict of interest for me, as my
goal has always been to supply objective science-based
information people can apply to their lives in the
“real world.”
It’s funny, however—I do get a lot
of e-mails and comments from people telling me how
I should sell my own line of supplements as I am
the only person they trust out there! It’s
hard to know what the right answer is, as there
are upsides and downsides no matter what I do. Perhaps
something will happen in the future with all that,
I can’t say.
Question: You are also well-known for having worked
with various pro bodybuilders, other athletes and
fitness models, which—although impressive—is
pretty standard fare for a high level trainer and
“guru” type such as yourself. However,
what jumped out at me was your work with law enforcement
and the military. I read a letter from a sergeant
from a SWAT team on the Brinkzone web site* about
a seminar you did for his group. That seems like
a pretty specialized area. Can you tell us more
about that?
Will Brink: Sure. I have many friends that are
in either law enforcement or special operations
military, and I give advice to individuals in those
areas. I am also an avid shooter and compete regularly.
I realized that these “high speed, low drag”
types from special operations and tactical law enforcement
take a lot of supplements, and are really nothing
but triathletes who carry weapons and gear. They
tend to eat and train like athletes. After doing
some digging into the research, I found studies
existed that confirmed my own impressions, which
was these guys used as many, if not more, supplements
than your average person in the gym.
I also knew they were getting most of their information
from the musclemags and their buddies, more or less
like everyone else out there. So, I thought doing
some seminars for such groups could be helpful to
them to perform better. In their line of work, second
place means coming back in a bodybag, vs. winning
a second place trophy.
I probably have a much better handle on their needs
and requirements than most, due to my personal interest,
research and close contacts in the law enforcement
community.
Question: OK, so you have written for many publications,
consulted for many of the better known supplement
companies, been involved in research found in peer-reviewed
journals, worked with high level athletes, as well
as a long list of other accomplishments we can read
about on your web site. You have written an impressive
body of work that has attempted to help people navigate
the minefields in the health, fitness, weight loss,
and bodybuilding industries. So why are you writing
e-books now vs. magazines or printed books?
WB. An excellent question. For one, e-books give
me total editorial control. I can say whatever I
want to say, and be as honest as I wish to be. That’s
simply not possible with the print magazines, much
more so today than it used to be. Another problem
is that print books are often literally out of date
by the time they hit the store shelves. It can take
a year, or even two, to get from selling a book
to a publisher to getting it printed.
New research and information on supplements, nutrition,
exercise, weight loss, etc. comes out almost daily.
E-books allow me to update their content in real
time. For example, we are on version four on one
e-book, which was done within the time it would
take to get a single book into print.
Perhaps the most important feature, however, is
the interactivity. E-books are not just electronic
versions of “real” books, but a portal
to a larger interactive community with interlinked
resources such as nutrition and diet software, daily
meal planners, massive food lists, exercise vids,
and other tools.
Question: What do you mean by community?
Will Brink: By community, I mean the e-books come
with large private forums that are all interlinked
to the above tools, and are moderated by myself
and a group of hand-picked moderators, who have
their own specific areas of expertise, such as rehabilitative
medicine, nutrition, supplementation and training.
Members talk to each other, get their questions
answered, and find support and help for reaching
their goals, be it gaining strength and muscle mass,
losing fat, or just getting into better shape than
they were last year.
You can’t compare such a total system to
a print book or magazine article. It makes a print
book look like a waste of time and money!
Question: So you have two e-books that are part
of larger programs and communities: one that focuses
on weight loss, and the other on gaining muscle
mass and strength, is that right?
Will Brink: Yes. Of course there is some overlap
in information, but the nutrition, exercise sections,
and supplements reviewed and or recommended are
quite different between the two e-books and forums.
Many of our members actually go back and forth,
using the fat loss e-book when dieting and the more
strength and bodybuilding-oriented e-book when trying
to gain muscle mass.
Question: Are these e-books helpful for the average
person just looking to lose some weight or get stronger,
or are they geared toward bodybuilders and other
athletes?
WB. If anyone looks on the sites that sell the
e-books, they can see people from all walks of life
use them. I think people get way too wrapped up
in thinking there is a specific niche like “toning
and firming” or “bodybuilding.”
These are just terms used to make people feel there
are some major differences between them. It’s
mostly marketing hype really. A person might say
“I just want to lose some fat and gain some
muscle, but I don’t want to be a bodybuilder.”
And yet, those are the exact same goals of the bodybuilders!
What the person means is, they are not attempting
to add as much muscle and lose as much fat as it
would require to end up looking like a competitive
bodybuilder, which FYI, only a small % of people
have the genetics for anyway, but that’s another
issue. Now where was I? Lost my train of thought!
Question: You were saying people often state they
want to lose some fat or gain some muscle, or get
stronger, but may not want to be bodybuilders, when
those are, in fact, the same goals bodybuilders
have.
Will Brink: Exactly! It’s simply a matter
of degree, but the goals are the same. One of the
biggest problems I see with people achieving their
goals is, they don’t have concrete goals.
Without a concrete, well-defined, and measurable
goal, you can’t reach it, as it does not exist.
“I want to be in better shape,” or “I
want to tone and firm,” or even, “I
want to lose weight” are either not goals
you can define or measure objectively, or they are
goals you don’t actually want. For example,
your body has no idea or specific mechanism for
“toning and firming.” You can gain or
lose fat and you can gain or lose muscle. That's
it. Those are essentially your choices based on
biological reality. Now, if you lose some fat and
gain some muscle, you will be more “toned”
in appearance and “firm” to the touch,
but the body does not know from toning and firming,
and that's a fact. Your goals should be to lose
fat and gain—or maintain—muscle.
In other words, these goals are the same ones that
bodybuilders have—it’s simply a matter
of degree. Bodybuilders want to put on the maximum
amount of muscle and lose the maximum amount of
fat, but that’s the only real difference.
What I do is cut through all the BS, and give advice
based on the common denominators between seemingly
complex topics. This helps people avoid the pitfalls
of conflicting advice out there, most of which is
either just plain wrong or based on marketing vs.
reality and objective fact.
Question: What about the goal of losing weight?
That seems like an objective measurable goal, no?
Will Brink: It is, and that’s a good point
to make. You will note that I said people often
choose goals that are either not measurable goals
you can define objectively, or they are goals you
don’t actually want. Losing weight is in the
latter category, and something I have been trying
to teach people for a few decades. Losing weight
is an objective and easy to track measure, it’s
just the wrong measure! What people need to focus
on is losing fat, not weight! When you lose weight,
it can be muscle, water, bone, and fat.
Most people focus exclusively on weight loss, and
go about dieting and exercising—assuming they
exercise at all—to lose weight. In that process,
they often end up simply a thinner version of their
former flabby selves. Sometimes, they even end up
with a higher bodyfat percentage after they lose
weight, as most of what they lost was muscle! Using
weight loss as the only measure of success is a
huge mistake! Unfortunately, it’s one I see
people make all the time.
Question: Wow, that makes almost too much sense
Will! Real food for thought there. This has been
a fascinating conversation. I hope readers will
enjoy reading it as much as I did writing it. Thank
you for your time!
Will Brink: Much appreciated, one of the best interviews
I have been part of, so thank you!
|
